Did you know that #Zoom uses #XMPP for their chat? Isn't it ironic that while large parts of the software freedom movement consider XMPP as outdated and refuse to use it, companies building commercially successful proprietary and centralized solutions on top of it... 🤔 #OpenStandards #FreeSoftware

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@bjoern I think no one doubts qualities of XMPP as a base for closed solutions, but unfortunately it utterly failed as a federated service.

@tagomago

No business driver behind it. In today's vision of consumer IT, driven by silicon valley venture capitalists and enthusiastically endorsed by silicon valley capitalist wannabes, it's all about walled gardens.

@sesivany @bjoern

@0 That's not what I understood from @sesivany's assertment. In that sense, every federated service fails, so it's not worth mentioning it. @bjoern

@tagomago
No, he seems to think that it was due to some unspecified technical reason.

> In that sense, every federated service fails

In the sense of not being silicon valley venture capital friendly? Yes, definitely and thankfully.

And what this means is that the thinking in silicon valley needs to be readjusted. Ideally before their too big to fail behemoths fail.

@sesivany @bjoern

@tagomago

It did clearly fail by the measures that @sesivany is using.

He and I disagree on the cause of that failure, not in that it occurred.

It obviously did not fail in the wider sense of becoming the go-to solution for instant messaging and presence.

@bjoern

@tagomago @sesivany @bjoern

I dislike analogies but it's like saying that #Linux “failed” because it's not the dominant desktop OS. By that particular measure yes it did, while still being by far the most widely used OS out there by any of a number of measures.

Chances are high that any given household is running a number of Linux installations yet few people will be aware of them using it.

At a much smaller scale, we see a similar phenomenon with #XMPP.

@sesivany @bjoern Failed?

More like killed.

> While during their growth periods both Google Talk and Facebook Chat adopted XMPP technology. After some time, both removed first some features from it — most notably, of course, the federation ability.

blog.xrds.acm.org/2018/05/wall

@ashwinvis @bjoern Google kept the federation for years and the main reason why it left XMPP was that it was too slow to adopt new features. Their extension for audio/video call Jingle was not accepted into the standard even after 10 years. That's just painfully slow in an area of such rapid development as instant messaging.

@sesivany The first version of Jingle for A/V calls was accepted as an experimental XMPP standard in Dec 2005, about 4 months after the initial release of Google Talk. It's considered a stable draft since 2009. libTelepathy (Empathy, KDE) and Jitsi added support for Jingle in 2007 and 2011 respectively. Google announced to drop XMPP support in 2013, so this is hardly related to XMPP being to slow to accept and adopt the standard. xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0167.h

@sesivany Also I doubt there is rapid development in instant messaging. The huge new features in IM in the last years have been what? Animated stickers and dark mode? That's hardly protocol related, but merely a UI thing.

@sesivany

Jirko, Google killed their #XMPP service for the same commercial reasons that drive every part of their business.

@ashwinvis @bjoern

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