Some people can't seem to understand why so many French are protesting after #Macron's victory. The most popular comment goes pretty much like "you got what you voted for", which is revealing: these commenters understand politics as if it was a soccer match in which the only thing that matters is winning. They can't seem to understand that Macron won because he was the lesser evil, and the fight needs to continue, if people don't want to see France become a neoliberal hell
@Antanicus but are protests the best way to achieve whatever the aims are? Could energy put into some more constructive way of creating the positive change they want to see (which is what incidentally)? I see those sorts of protests like shouting at the sea for being the sea!
@NOiDEa @Antanicus protests are an incredibly powerful way of making yourself aware that you are not alone and making sure your voice gets heard.
@simonv3 @Antanicus yes fair point - what are they trying to say though?
@simonv3 @Antanicus @NOiDEa We shouldn't expect the voice of the people to be the one providing answers to society's problems. The people are there to highlight when something is wrong, and to do that they are uniquely qualified.
Political parties are the ones who are there to take that discontent and shape into a course of political action.
Whether political parties actually do that or not... that's an entirely different problem.
@NOiDEa @jjatria @Antanicus I don't think it does much good to confuse street violence with protest in general. There's a lot written about why black block action can be useful. But peaceful protests have certainly been effective when people have felt that their voices are unheard by their representatives.
@NOiDEa @simonv3 @Antanicus Yes: (some) people organise into unions, parties, etc, and propose political solutions. We agree. Political parties are made of people, after all
I was aiming at what you went back to: it's not the job of the people to have a coherent social analysis before they go out to the streets
And it's not their fault if it does not achieve anything either: it's the fault of the political system that couldn't articulate it
@jjatria @simonv3 @Antanicus I think I just have a dimmer view of the political system! and think the responsibility lies with us to identify the shortcomings and act to improve things ourselves. I think it is an illusion that there are others who are going to listen to our discontent and fix things for us https://www.amazon.co.uk/Leaderless-Revolution-Ordinary-Politics-Century/dp/1847396399
@NOiDEa @simonv3 @Antanicus Remember that "the people" is made of ... people. So we (as people) are the "others" that can "listen to our discontent and fix things".
But those two are different. It was the price of bread and salt that took the French people on to the streets in 1789, and at that time they couldn't be blamed for not having a plan to overthrow the monarchy. But the same French people were able to then articulate that discontent
@jjatria @simonv3 @Antanicus yes but I don't think the people in the political system are neccesarily able to listen as corporations are shouting louder. Fair point about the French Revolution but similar circumstances brought about the Arab Spring and similar uprisings in response have not been so effective there?
@NOiDEa @jjatria @simonv3 i wouldn't call it "dimmer", just more realistic. The age of ideologies is over (thank goodness) and it's about time we begin using our own heads to crunch problems instead of relying on ready-made ideological frameworks which only serve those who are already rich and in control
@jjatria @Antanicus @NOiDEa if the voice of the people isn't what's controlling our democracies than they're not democracies.
Most of our nation states have elected to do this through republic representation, but it's still - in theory if not in practice - the voice of the people.
@simonv3 @jjatria @Antanicus do you think they are democracies though? Plutocracies?
@simonv3 @Antanicus @NOiDEa I didn't say anything about who is "controlling our democracies". What I meant was that what drives the people to the streets is discontent, and that discontent does not need to come bundled with a concrete political path to a solution, or even a clear diagnostic of what the solution is.
That is not the role of the people. That is the role of political parties: they heed the discontent, and articulate it into policy
@jjatria @simonv3 @Antanicus Ideally - and hopefully they will not heed the discontent but instead use it as an excuse to restrict civil liberties https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/free-speech-and-protest/protest/protest-around-parliament
@NOiDEa @simonv3 @Antanicus Huh? You lost me there
@jjatria @simonv3 @NOiDEa this might have been true up to the '70s, but it's no longer the case because of the two funamental changes neoliberalism introduced into the fabric of our society: 1. by offshoring production, it destroyed organized labour, which acted as a counterbalance to corporate power 2. by severing the ties between people and politics, it produced a general disenfranchisement that results in a deep distrust towards politics
@Antanicus @simonv3 @NOiDEa You talk about the distrust in politics as a bad thing (which it is), but then you celebrate the fact that "the age of ideologies is over" (which is not). I don't get that
Ideology is a political compass that helps us evaluate the circumstantial choices we make every day and check whether they are a step forward or not
I prefer to not be so cynic: cynicism is the gateway drug to political conservatism
@jjatria @Antanicus many ideologies are over-simplified narratives (with an agenda). Left/right ideologies were tried throughout the 20th century and found wanting. There is a new world of complex networks that has emerged long after those narratives were penned. Feel free to view the new paradigm through that old TV set but you may miss the bigger picture
@jjatria @simonv3 @Antanicus I don't think it works like that - in reality people form into power structures (e.g. unions) & exert power on the government.
Corporations are amongst the most powerful structures in the world & correspondingly their lobbying carries the most influence
People are understandably annoyed about this as their interests are often advanced at the expense of ours
Incoherent street anger & violence am skeptical achieves anything