@wion @dredmorbius why would you punish the French citizens with a gas tax when the problem is not the 99%, but the 1%?

If you want to lower power usage / pollution you have to drop big, fat carbon taxes on the rich. They'll help solve the economies of scale when they invest in solutions that protect their bottom line and this tech will trickle down.

This is like the only trickle down that works. TAX THE RICH.

@feld You're addressing to different, though real and relevant problems.

One is under-pricing of fossil carbon fuels. Another is general inequality and inequity, as well as the age-old conflict between _rents_ incomes vs. _wages_ incomes. The rentiers generally win, the wage-earners generally lose.

There are additional taxes you want to impose on the 1%, but you _still_ have to make fossil fuels pay full freight.


@dredmorbius @wion the price of petrol in Europe is already prohibitively expensive. It still doesn't make sense if the pollution from average citizens combined is drastically lower in volume than a small number of companies and individuals -- you go after those who can weather the economic impact and pollute the most instead of tanking the economy because now everyone is struggling.

@feld First off, the issue in question was *electrical energy* not *petrol fuel*, as very few crypto-mining rigs burn petrol. For the fundamental reason expressed: IT'S TOO DAMNED EXPENSIVE.

Crypto mining is a COMPLETELY economically-driven process: the viability of crypto mining is driven by fixed and marginal costs, and the market price of bitcoins.

(I'm not even getting to the point that that market is completely whack, though read David Gerard's excellent book and anslysis.)


@feld I'll leave you with my favourite quote of Karl Marx:

"Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power."

Except I lied.

That's not Marx, he didn't say it.

Adam Smith. Wealth of Nations. Which is _not_ a perfect book. But there's a lot in it you might want to actually read.


(And you can believe that Marx read Smith.)


@dredmorbius @wion You have not provided me with any new or surprising information other than the Marx/Smith bit. I am well aware of all of these things.

I only brought up petrol because someone else mentioned France and the gas tax.

Let's get back to the energy prices discussion: I worked in IT security for a power utility, and as such was forced to take many training sessions on the entire industry. Bulk power rates are crazy cheap. The cost of electricity to the average citizen is not a big deal; we shouldn't care about raising those rates. It's the rates of the bulk power purchasers we need to raise. They're paying significantly less than the average person per kWH and it needs to stop. We're all basically subsidizing the cost of electricity for the huge companies and factories and datacenters consuming unimaginable amounts of power.

@feld So, yes, bulk power prices are _another_ issue, but let's keep straight what we've been discussing in this thread so far:

1. The power costs of distributing gobs of Jquery copies around the 'Net, relative to total WWII explosive yield (a possibly misleading comparison, but let's skip that quibble).

2. The power consumption and impacts of cryptocurrency mining.

3. The _impacts_ of power generation generally, and fossil fuels specifically.

4. Transport fuels.

5. Wages.

6. Taxes.


@feld It turns out that those are at the very least _somewhat_ independent things, and if you want to address them, it helps to understand how they interrelate, economically and otherwise.

To take a tangent: getting this wrong is like someone asking if the computer is slow because there's too much mail on the hard drive. To a first approximation, and probably a 3rd to 5th, the answer is "no". And in fact the answer is "the question makes no sense".

So I'll turn this back over to you...


@feld What specifically is the problem you're looking at, why do you see it as a problem, and what are you proposing to do about it?

Because so far, there's been no clear statement or agreement on any of this.

(And I've muted the party who kept wanting to argue with me over what they'd wished I'd said rather than what I'd actually said.)


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